Defragment flash drive on Vista

Michael Lanier wrote:
> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable to
> find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I access it.
> Thanks.
>
> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx

http://ask-leo.com/can_a_usb_thumbdrive_wear_out.html
Seems to imply that excessive use by a database application (or defrag)
might wear out a thumbdrive. I'd think twice.

I only use mine for archive of utilities I install after a reload.
Those little tweaks and tools.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

Michael Lanier wrote:
> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am
> unable to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how
> would I access it. Thanks.
>
> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx

I don't know if it's supposed to be available in Vista or not, and as bob
and big al say, it's likely to cause more harm than good anyway. If you
simply won't be able to sleep tonight because you've heard that failing to
defrag a drive allows the communists to win or something, then copying the
data off the drive, reformatting it and placing the data back on would have
the effect of defragging a conventional hard disk with less wear and tear,
and so might make you feel good if you do it to your flash disk.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

"Michael Lanier" wrote in
<news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com>:

> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable to
> find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I access it.
> Thanks.
>
> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx

You think there is a miniature platter spinning inside that thumb drive
that needs to be defragmented?
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

Michael Lanier wrote:
> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable to
> find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I access it.
> Thanks.
>
> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx

Never defragment a flash drive. It will shorten the lifespan of the
drive and there will be no benefit to doing this.

--
Robert Pendell
shinji.RemoveThis@elite-systems.org

"A perfect world is one of chaos."

Thawte Web of Trust Notary
CAcert Assurer
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

Big Al wrote:

> Michael Lanier wrote:
>
>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am
>> unable to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how
>> would I access it.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>
>
> http://ask-leo.com/can_a_usb_thumbdrive_wear_out.html
> Seems to imply that excessive use by a database application (or defrag)
> might wear out a thumbdrive. I'd think twice.
>
> I only use mine for archive of utilities I install after a reload. Those
> little tweaks and tools.

Flash memory have a finite number of write cycles, as for the database
not an issue if mostly reads. On the other hand defragging a flash drive
is an exercise in futility, no moving parts.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

Bob I wrote:
>
>
> Big Al wrote:
>
>> Michael Lanier wrote:
>>
>>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am
>>> unable to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how
>>> would I access it.
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>>
>>
>> http://ask-leo.com/can_a_usb_thumbdrive_wear_out.html
>> Seems to imply that excessive use by a database application (or
>> defrag) might wear out a thumbdrive. I'd think twice.
>>
>> I only use mine for archive of utilities I install after a reload.
>> Those little tweaks and tools.
>
> Flash memory have a finite number of write cycles, as for the database
> not an issue if mostly reads. On the other hand defragging a flash drive
> is an exercise in futility, no moving parts.
>

Which will really be cool when solid state hard drives get larger and
cheaper. No defrag ever!!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

Big Al wrote:

> Bob I wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Big Al wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Lanier wrote:
>>>
>>>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am
>>>> unable to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how
>>>> would I access it.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://ask-leo.com/can_a_usb_thumbdrive_wear_out.html
>>> Seems to imply that excessive use by a database application (or
>>> defrag) might wear out a thumbdrive. I'd think twice.
>>>
>>> I only use mine for archive of utilities I install after a reload.
>>> Those little tweaks and tools.
>>
>>
>> Flash memory have a finite number of write cycles, as for the database
>> not an issue if mostly reads. On the other hand defragging a flash
>> drive is an exercise in futility, no moving parts.
>>
>
> Which will really be cool when solid state hard drives get larger and
> cheaper. No defrag ever!!!!

That won't stop the snake oil clowns from claiming it's beneficial.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

"Michael Lanier" <jamaica.RemoveThis@charter.net> wrote in message
news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com...
> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable
> to
> find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I access
> it.
> Thanks.
>
> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx

Under any operating system, I would be reluctant to defragment any FLASH
memory drive for 2 reasons.

1. The multiple file fragment shifts that are required during any defragment
operation are going to severely tax the limited life of the FLASH memory
blocks (limited to an *average* of 1000 erase/write cycles).

2. These devices are slow enough that any speed gain is not going to be very
significant.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

M.I.5¾ wrote:
> "Michael Lanier" <jamaica.TakeThisOut@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com...
>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable
>> to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I
>> access
>> it.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>
> Under any operating system, I would be reluctant to defragment any FLASH
> memory drive for 2 reasons.
>
> 1. The multiple file fragment shifts that are required during any
> defragment
> operation are going to severely tax the limited life of the FLASH memory
> blocks (limited to an *average* of 1000 erase/write cycles).

Is that documented somewhere? Or does it vary all over the place?
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

Updated below...

Bill in Co. wrote:
> M.I.5¾ wrote:
>> "Michael Lanier" <jamaica.RemoveThis@charter.net> wrote in message
>> news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com...
>>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable
>>> to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I
>>> access it.
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>>
>> Under any operating system, I would be reluctant to defragment any FLASH
>> memory drive for 2 reasons.
>>
>> 1. The multiple file fragment shifts that are required during any
>> defragment
>> operation are going to severely tax the limited life of the FLASH memory
>> blocks (limited to an *average* of 1000 erase/write cycles).
>
> Is that documented somewhere? Or does it vary all over the place?

Actually, I just spent a bit of time looking this lifetime thing up now, and
I'm seeing articles mentioning 10,000 - 100,000 erase/write cycles, not
1000. So while it's true that defragging will tap into this a bit,
occasionally doing it probably wouldn't be all that harmful (although there
isn't much point).
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

"VanguardLH" <V DeleteThis @nguard.LH> wrote in message
news:fvqj6q$7f4$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Michael Lanier" wrote in
> <news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com>:
>
>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am unable
>> to
>> find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I access
>> it.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>
> You think there is a miniature platter spinning inside that thumb drive
> that needs to be defragmented?

In spite of your comment, FLASH memory drives do become fragmented just like
disc based drives do, and for exectly the same reasons. However, as noted,
there is little to gain and a lot to lose by defragmenting a FLASH based
drive.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OIyM5SOsIHA.1236@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Updated below...
>
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> M.I.5¾ wrote:
>>> "Michael Lanier" <jamaica DeleteThis @charter.net> wrote in message
>>> news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com...
>>>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am
>>>> unable
>>>> to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I
>>>> access it.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>>>
>>> Under any operating system, I would be reluctant to defragment any FLASH
>>> memory drive for 2 reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. The multiple file fragment shifts that are required during any
>>> defragment
>>> operation are going to severely tax the limited life of the FLASH memory
>>> blocks (limited to an *average* of 1000 erase/write cycles).
>>
>> Is that documented somewhere? Or does it vary all over the place?
>
> Actually, I just spent a bit of time looking this lifetime thing up now,
> and I'm seeing articles mentioning 10,000 - 100,000 erase/write cycles,
> not 1000. So while it's true that defragging will tap into this a bit,
> occasionally doing it probably wouldn't be all that harmful (although
> there isn't much point).
>
Flashdrives certified for Vista Readyboost would require a lifetime
in excess of 100,000 write cycles. One with 1000 write cycles probably
wouldn't last much more than a day on a heavily used computer.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista 

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OIyM5SOsIHA.1236@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Updated below...
>
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> M.I.5¾ wrote:
>>> "Michael Lanier" <jamaica.DeleteThis@charter.net> wrote in message
>>> news:0a85f12c8e9f42d79f10e0b727be1849@newspe.com...
>>>> XP allows me to defragment drives other than my hard drive. I am
>>>> unable
>>>> to find that capability on my Vista. Is it available and how would I
>>>> access it.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> url:http://www.ureader.com/gp/1279-1.aspx
>>>
>>> Under any operating system, I would be reluctant to defragment any FLASH
>>> memory drive for 2 reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. The multiple file fragment shifts that are required during any
>>> defragment
>>> operation are going to severely tax the limited life of the FLASH memory
>>> blocks (limited to an *average* of 1000 erase/write cycles).
>>
>> Is that documented somewhere? Or does it vary all over the place?
>
> Actually, I just spent a bit of time looking this lifetime thing up now,
> and I'm seeing articles mentioning 10,000 - 100,000 erase/write cycles,
> not 1000. So while it's true that defragging will tap into this a bit,
> occasionally doing it probably wouldn't be all that harmful (although
> there isn't much point).

There is confusion because there are 2 lives associated with FLASH memory
cells. The regular memory blocks (the ones that actually hold the data) are
lifed for an average of 1000 erase/write cycles. These blocks are utilised
on a rotating basis to ensure that the least recently erased and written
block is the next one to be erased and written (this is called 'wear
levelling' and is designed to extend the life as far as possible). However,
every FLASH memory device also has a block that holds the houskeeping data
such as the FATs and in which block the data is actually held. This block
has to have a much greater life because it has to be completely erased and
rewritten every time the memory is altered. It is this block that is lifed
for 100,000 erase write cycles. The architecture of FLASH memory cells is
designed to keep the cost down as much as possible, and it is a fact of
these devices that if one block fails (be it data or houskeeping), the whole
memory device is rendered useless.

Fortunately it is only the erase/write that is life limited. If the memory
can be written and verified, then the read life is, thankfully, relatively
infinite. That makes this type of memory ideal for holding device firmware
that may be updated relatively infrequently, but its use in USB thumb
drives, though not ideal, is considered acceptable because the low cost of
the memory means that the drives can be cheaply replaced when a failure does
occur. I have got through several.

If you have ever watched the graphic representation of file fragment
movements that occur when a drive is defragmented, you will appreciate that
a FLASH drive will get one hell of workout as the defragmentation proceeds.
 >> Stay informed about: Defragment flash drive on Vista